THE ideals that make Malaysia a civilised society are fast eroding, and in some cases, destroyed altogether, said law lecturer Azmi Sharom. 

The popular pony-tailed Universiti Malaya lecturer said the situation in the country now demands that the people voice their grievances against fundamental wrongs in the judiciary and the nation at large.

“If you believe in something, you’ve got to speak up,” he told The Malaysian Insight.

“I mean, like, what is so bizarre about saying the judiciary should be independent. What is so weird about saying, ‘oh we have a right to criticise the government in our democracy’.”

Azmi, the only scholar in Malaysia to have been charged under the Sedition Act for comments relating to the Selangor constitutional crisis in 2014, insisted there was nothing “dramatic” about his views, adding that it as was “the right thing to do.”

He was charged on September 2, 2014, for allegedly making the seditious remarks, but was acquitted in February 11, 2016. 

Recognising that most scholars do not express their opinions due to the political climate, he said they should have the “freedom to give their perspectives and their views, as long as they can be justified.”

“The government has been, for decades, inculcating a culture of fear in everybody,” said Azmi.

He was recently in the spotlight again, airing his view that supporting former prime minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad would be preferable to supporting the ruling government, as the latter has failed to reform the judiciary. 

Azmi, who grew up in Penang, believes scholars should be bolder in making their opinions heard. 

The 49-year-old attended Sheffield University for his undergraduate degree. He received his masters of law at Nottingham University, and later his doctorate from the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. 

He teaches human rights, conflicts of law, and international and environmental law at UM.

Below are excerpts of the interview: 

TMI: Where did this passion to teach come from? 

Azmi: I come from a long line of teachers. My father was a university lecturer. My mother was a teacher and guide trainer. A whole bunch of my uncles and aunties, at least at one point in their lives, were teachers. My grandfather was a school inspector. My great-grandfather was a religious teacher. So, I suppose it’s in the blood (laughs).

My parents were supportive because my father was a university lecturer as well. Fortunately, I didn’t have parents who said, “Aiyah, be a lawyer lah. You can make more money.” 

TMI: This need to put yourself out there in terms of expressing your opinions, what drives it?

Azmi: I suppose a sense of right and wrong is in anyone. I suppose most people have the sense of whether this is right and this is wrong. So, I don’t think there’s anything extraordinary in that. Look dude, I live a most dull life. I’m not some guy who is abused by the police (laughs).

There was nothing dramatic in my life and there was no dramatic moment. But basically, if you study law, and if you teach law, you see that there are certain principles that should be adhered to. There are certain ideals we should hold on to.

And I believe these ideals are what make us a civilised society. And if you see these things being taken away and destroyed, these principles, these ideals, then you have to say something about it because if you don’t, what’s going to happen to our lives, to our society.

There’s nothing dramatic there, dude. I mean, like, what is so bizarre about saying the judiciary should be independent, for example. There’s nothing revolutionary about that. What is so weird about saying, oh we have a right to criticise the government in our democracy. There’s nothing weird about that at all, right? There’s nothing which I say or do which is strange or revolutionary. 

TMI: There are a lot scholars who do not express their opinions. Do you think that speaks of the political climate in Malaysia, where that is the norm?

Azmi: The government has been, for decades, inculcating a culture of fear in everybody. Do you remember the 1980s, people talk as if the Special Branch is listening to you all the time, which is bullshit lah.

When you’re in a coffee shop, when you say something against Dr Mahathir in those days (laughs), and then someone would say, “Don’t lah, don’t lah”. As if the Special Branch is listening to you in a coffee shop lah, dei. But that’s the culture that we had. 

And this culture is also found in universities, you know, where people are worried about speaking their minds. And this has been going on for decades. And of course there are laws which control us as well. There are things that can be done to you if the powers that be are not happy with you. 

Which is why we have this situation, which is a terrible, terrible situation to have because universities should be a safe place. Academics should have the freedom to give their perspectives and their points of view, as long as their perspectives and their points of view can be justified. But we don’t have that.

TMI: Are you not concerned by what might happen to you if you keep voicing your opinions?

Azmi: Of course I’m concerned. I have a family. I have a mortgage. I have a car loan. Of course I’m concerned. But you know… because it’s right, dude. I mean, if you believe in something you got to speak up. Like I said, what is so weird about wanting the rule of law. What is so weird about saying corruption is bad. What is so weird about saying governments have to be accountable.

What is so weird about saying things like this. What is so strange and so bad about saying people have the right to assemble and have the right to speak. 

Nothing I say, nothing is revolutionary. Not one single thing. And I’m supposed to be scared for saying things like that? Dude, seriously? (laughs). Of course I’m worried because they can do things to you, but that’s what got us in this mess in the first place, because all of us are worried. 

What the hell are they going to do if every single one of us spoke our minds. If every single newspaper did it. What are they going to do? Shut down every single newspaper? Shut down every radio station, every TV station?

TMI: Do you feel that financial scandals, like 1MDB, are an issue that people are still concerned about, or do they have short memories?

Azmi: It’s not just short-term memory. Any sort of white-collar crime, people don’t really feel it immediately. So, for example, if I were to rob you right now and take your stuff, you feel it. But if I were to do something which affected your pension fund, you don’t necessarily feel it immediately, even if it is much worse.

It’s rare that ordinary folk feel it, this sort of white collar type offences or alleged white-collar type offences because there’s been no trial or anything at the moment. 

Let me give you an example, when the banks in Iceland collapsed (in 2010 to 2011), everybody lost their funds, people lost their homes. People felt it. It’s only really dramatic situations like that, that people feel the effects of white-collar offences.

In a way, it’s not surprising that the general public, although we know that these things happen, and we know there’s accusations of incredible corruption, because it doesn’t affect us on a personal level, I think, for most people, it’s not something you lose sleep over. But if you get mugged, you lose sleep for months. 

TMI: Do you think financial scandals would never be understood by rural folk? 

Azmi: I don’t think anybody can understand them except for some financial genius (laughs). If you are talking about 1MDB, how it was stolen, it’s all so complicated, right? The fact of the matter is, if your family income is RM1,200 per month, you live extremely simply, your needs become extremely basic as well. So, what concerns you are those day-to-day things.

Something that happens in Kuala Lumpur of that scale, is beyond their world. It’s not to say people in rural areas don’t understand what’s going on. I think that’s condescending. Their immediate concerns are different. To say that they will feel the effects of this, well, do they have an EPF (Employees’ Provident Fund) for example? Is it going to affect their EPF? Probably not, right? 

TMI: You are the only scholar in Malaysia to be charged under the Sedition Act. How does it feel?

Azmi: Look, dude, seriously, it’s not (a) personal (attack against me). I wasn’t anything special. You must remember, they were doing it to a lot of people, so obviously it was some sort of concerted effort. 

I was asked for my opinion on the Selangor constitutional crisis in relation to the Perak constitutional crisis. That’s all. I gave them my opinion. That’s all I did. Remember that time a lot of people were charged with sedition. It wasn’t particularly special that I got charged. I was one amongst many. And all of us were suffering equally. 

TMI: When you were charged, did you know what would happen? 

Azmi: You know, teaching the law and being charged as a criminal are two different things. So of course, you were never 100% certain as to what was going to happen. But I had excellent lawyers who were also my childhood friends. I was confident that they would take care of me. Also, looking at what I said, it seemed that the charge was quite weak. They had, in my point of view, weak grounds to charge me.

I felt that a reasonable judge might be able to see that. I was nervous, but I wasn’t particularly terrified. 

TMI: What was it like, being part of the court process? Did you learn anything from the experience?

Azmi: It was quite interesting you know. You get to sit in the kandang (dock). The whole procedure. The (Kuala Lumpur) High Court in Jalan Duta, the acoustics are terrible. You can’t hear what they’re saying (laughs).

A lot of it was just the mechanics of it. And you wouldn’t really know it, unless you are a practising lawyer, which I’m not, or unless you are charged (laughs). It was quite interesting to see how everything works. 

TMI: Did the sedition charge shake your fellow scholars?

Azmi: Well, nobody said anything to me. But I think in academia, this culture of fear has been going on for decades. Having me charged doesn’t add to it, for something that has been going on for so long. 

TMI: Do you have any advice to scholars who are thinking of expressing what they really feel, but are holding back?

Azmi: As scholars, we have to be very sure that we say are backed up, either by research or by authority of some sort. And by authority, I mean intellectual authority not government authority (laughs). That’s our protection, that our opinion is based on sound reason. 

As long as you do that, why should you be overly frightened of anything. But I understand, sometimes the powers that be are not rational, but then this is our job. Our job is to disseminate knowledge and information. When we don’t do this, then what is our purpose? – January 28, 2018.