DON’T lie and show me the money you collected during your five terms as prime minister.

This was the burning question senior minister Nazri Abdul Aziz had wanted to ask his former boss, Dr Mahathir Mohamad, if their debate had been allowed to take place.

Nazri, who is tourism and culture minister, would have also asked if Dr Mahathir had collected funds through highway or power plant concessions.

Nazri, who was first elevated as minister by Dr Mahathir, said these were the main questions he would have put to the 92-year-old had they squared off at the debate in Shah Alam, which was supposed to be held tomorrow.

In an interview with The Malaysian Insight on the sidelines of the Dewan Rakyat on Tuesday, Nazri gave the lowdown on how he would have handled some of the questions he expected from Dr Mahathir.

The Umno Supreme Council member, however, also revealed that he had a few choice questions for Dr Mahathir, especially on the RM2.6 billion that flowed into Prime Minister Najib Razak’s personal accounts.

Najib, who is also Umno president, said it was a personal donation from a member of the Saudi royal family to fund the Barisan Nasional campaign during the 13th general election in 2013.

This explanation has been rubbished by critics, such as Dr Mahathir, who ran Umno for 22 years. The former prime minister had also said that donations should have gone into the party’s accounts.

Nazri said what Dr Mahathir collected during the latter’s tenure was not reflected in the party’s accounts, adding that the former party president had collected cash which could not be traced.

In comparison, Nazri said, Najib’s use of his personal accounts to accept donations was more transparent than Dr Mahathir’s methods, as the money trail could be identified.

Below are excerpts from the interview:

Q: When the debate was cancelled, were you concerned that it would make you and Barisan Nasional look bad, as if you were shying away?

A: Why?

Q: Because everyone said it’s all a show. Nazri said he wanted a debate but at the end of the day, the cops who are biased towards BN did not approve it.

A: Do you think I care? Do you think I care what people think of me? I don’t give a damn. Every day they wake up and see Nazri still healthy and still a minister, it hurts them. And I intend to do this for many more years. Let them feel sick every day.

I have no time for what they think. What is important is that I wake up, I am still Padang Rengas MP and a minister. So, eat your heart out. I am here not to please them, but to please my president and Padang Rengas voters.

That is why I am prepared to debate Dr Mahathir to defend my president and prime minister.

Q: What Dr Mahathir has said, in all his ceramah and speeches, is that when he received money, it did not go into his personal accounts but it went into Umno’s accounts.

A: The account that he showed every year, which he wanted Umno members to approve, was the account that he wanted us to know. But the spending was more than that.

I want to say, Dr Mahathir don’t lie. We know you collected money. Now we want to know how much you collected, how much you spent, how much was the balance and where is it now?

Don’t lie and tell me that the money is in the Umno accounts. And I know he is lying. You collected cash.

Q: You’re saying he collected cash?

A: Yes. And he signed cheques to certain people. Which accounts were these from? Where has all the money gone to? He would have fainted if I asked him this. That’s why I wanted this debate.

I was told when Abdullah (Ahmad Badawi) took over, he was just given a piece of paper on the accounts. Collecting money for a political party does this. They also have to put up candidates. We all do this and it’s not an offence.

Don’t lie. He collected this money over five terms. Where was it from? We don’t know a thing about it. What went into the (Umno) account is what he wanted to show. He thinks we are children who can be deceived.

What went into the party accounts was what he wanted to show. To get approval from the RoS (Registrar of Societies) so that the party was not deregistered.

Q: So, you’re saying that Dr Mahathir did the same things as Najib?

A: More than what Najib did. And what he put in Umno accounts is not the true reflection of what he collected. Show me the accounts. We never asked where the money came from.

I got RM200,000 from him for campaign funds and RM10,000 to pay for the candidate’s deposit to the Election Commission. I never asked him, I was grateful to him. So, don’t ask Najib now.

How is it during your time it was okay, but during Najib’s time, it is not. You had five elections.

Q: There is also allegation that the money from the Saudi royal ultimately came from funds siphoned off from 1Malaysia Development Berhad (1MDB).

A: Prove this. We cannot be replying to these allegations with no facts. He has to prove it. His allegations are cheap.

Q: These allegations came from the Wall Street Journal.

A: Wall Street Journal, you can trust them? By the Department of Justice? Wall Street is the biggest crook. You cannot set what is written by Wall Street as true facts.

He has to show facts, not mere allegations. I trust the Saudi royals more than the Wall Street Journal. The guy has admitted to this. So, what are we to say? Is that not good enough?

The Saudi King has also visited us. So, why believe Wall Street any more?

Q: So how would you respond to Dr Mahathir saying that when he got donations, he did not steal. But Najib stole money.

A: Let me just say this. There was this girl in Penang who drove her car against traffic. She was on drugs, drove against traffic, killed someone. When she was charged in court, she pleaded not guilty.

That is just like Dr Mahathir.

Q: But the girl said had a disability.

A: Same thing with Dr Mahathir. It’s like Dr Mahathir admitting that he is a disabled person if he said he was not wrong (in collecting donations). Now you know why I was prepared to debate him.

Q: You have called Najib your good friend. So, to this day, you believe your good friend did not do wrong.

A: Yes. He has done nothing wrong. What he did, he did for the good of Umno, for me, for Muhyiddin (Yassin) and Shafie Apdal when we were candidates for Umno.

This is a personal donation from a person who does not want his identity revealed to the public. He is taking a personal responsibility for this. If it went into Umno’s accounts, how is he (Najib)  going to return parts of it? And also, everyone will know. That’s not good and that why it went into his personal account.

To me, putting (the donation) into the personal account is transparent. And can be traced. We can know the money trail.

If you accept cash, no one will know. I would ask Tun, why did you collect cash?

Q: Tun said donations would go into Umno’s accounts.

A: That’s a lie. If it went into Umno’s account, that’s the account that we want to show. Najib also put money into that account. To spend on the assembly.

The other money Tun has taken, did it go into this account (Umno)? You ask him. He has done this. He collected cash. Ask him why he collected cash? From who? He asked from businessmen, don’t you think he had to pay them back? Are we today paying for those donations through concessions on roads, power plants?

Q: So in your view, it was better that the money went into personal accounts?

A: Yes, put in personal account. It was never meant just for Umno. It was for the elections and BN. The elections are more than Umno. It was meant for the elections.

So maybe what happened is, he asked for a donation and the guy said, how much? And he said, “I don’t know yet”. So, the donor gave a big amount in case it was not enough. 2.6 billion was a lot. Because they wanted us to win the elections.

What I want you to understand is why I am so adamant about debating with Tun.

I also wanted to ask him. How many times did you have elections? Tun collected cash. Where did the money go? I wanted to see him reply.

I wanted to push this question. I think the police feared this, so that’s why they did not want to allow the debate.

So, I wanted to ask him live, face to face, personally. These are the reasons why I wanted to have a live debate with him. I wanted him to answer. Don’t lie. Tell the truth.

I was a minister when he was prime minister. That’s why I wanted the debate. Let him make accusations, I reply and then I would ask him back. So that people know why.

I would not attack him on the foreign exchange scandal, for instance. Because two wrongs do not make one right. My whole idea is to defend Najib against his accusations and anything relevant to those accusations, I wanted to ask him back.

A majority of Umno members don’t have the capacity to see this. The ones who do not support me also do not believe the explanations given by Najib on collecting this money. They think I can’t defend and it would open up other problems. – April 6, 2017.